The Scientist Who Proved Everything We Know About Consciousness Is Wrong

I want to dive into what DMT is. DMT is the most efficient and reliable means of accessing worlds that are beyond the imagination. DMT is just hallucination. It's just your brain on drugs, and I don't think that's the case. Imagine you could just blast somebody with a bunch of DMT, but maybe there's a more finessed way to get them to that place. The effect of DMT. is to change that world model. It's like changing the channel. It's a lot of interference and crackling, and then finally you find this beautiful new channel. We need to basically accept the fact that we know very, very little about the true nature of reality. You're going to see DMT finding a use in stroke, and traumatic brain injury in mental health, DMT is very good at stimulating neurogenesis. It helps. Brain cells kind of regenerate, increase their connections between each other. The only way to experience it is by taking DMT. It's just different than doing acid for me. It feels like you're studying, but on the darker side, what are the side effects of having a flood of DMT in your brain?

That's what we still don't understand and we might not be capable of understanding. Doctor Galmore, welcome to the podcast. Extremely excited to have you here. Good to be here. Yeah, after finishing your book, Death by Astonishment, which if you're even slightly into psychedelics or uh indigenous culture, it is an absolute must read. Uh, I never really was super into, you know, watching different podcasters talk about smoking and D&T. I never really put two and two together. I've done Ayahuasca a few times, but going through your book, starting all the way, I think it was like the 1850s with some of the first people going into the Amazon and, you know, trying to take these plants and understand the molecules and going through the whole history from, you know, Terrence McKenna, smoking DMT with what Rick Strassman and the At, uh, Elon, right, all the way up to, you know, the research you're doing now, it's just, it's just a, it's just a must read. It's extremely fascinating and it really linked everything together. So, I mean, just absolutely incredible book.

Thank you very much. Yeah, so we're excited to have you here. Thank you very much. Yeah, that's a good Elvis Presley impression. Thank you, mama. Your other book, uh, Alien Information Theory, a little more depth. That one reads like a, like a textbook almost, but that one's, I'm still working my way through it, but that one's also really fascinating. Around like the, the simulation that we're in and that's kind of one thing that I'm excited to talk to you about today is going deeper into that. But yeah, we're, we're really excited to, to talk with you. We've both been big fans for a while and yeah, I can't recommend your book enough to other people. Um, what was the thing that sparked wanting to write this book? Like what was the desire, because this must have been a lot of work to put all of this together. Oh yeah, it was a lot of work, um, but really, I mean, the work has been going on for You know, more than a decade, I guess. So, um, I've, I've been talking about DMT and its remarkable properties and the neuroscience and Trying to convince people, explain to people why I think DMT is such an important molecule and such a remarkable molecule and uh in, in many senses and inexplicable in its uh effects, um, and I thought no one's really written that book that explains all of that, um, and I think I have a somewhat.

Um, or developed something of a unique perspective over the years and so I thought, OK, I'm going to kind of give not my final word, but kind of everything I've learned about DMT and everything I think about DMT, um, in one. Convenient pocket sized volume, um, and so yeah, so that's what I did, um, the first two books he said alienation theory actually and Reality Switch Technologies, which was more of a, Um, the neuroscience of psychedelics, you know, how the psychedelics perturb the brain and alter the structure and dynamics of your world, um, whereas this third book, Death by Astonishment, taken from, of course, people always say, wasn't that Terence McKenna's phrase? Yes, that was Terence McKenna's phrase, and that's why I chose that title for the book. Um, Terence famously said that the only risk. Uh, with DMT his death by astonishment, so I thought that's the title, um.

Uh, and I'm going to, yeah, tell everyone all about DMT, um, not just kind of what I think about it, but, but the, the whole story, in your introduction that you spoke about, you know, DMT has, uh, there's a, a thread running through humanity, um, that goes back probably thousands of years of use of DMT initially in plant-based preparations, you know, pharmacological technologies, plant-based technologies, um, but. Um, this, this, this thread has continued, um, and we are now at the stage where we're doing. Uh, you know, we're starting to treat DMT like a technology, uh, uh, technology that allows, allows us to interface with. What appear to me and to many other people, uh, to be extremely, extremely strange, extremely advanced intelligences, um, and, you know, that's a remarkable thing. It's a great mystery. It remains a great mystery despite us having, you know, been studying, um, DMT for such a long time. It remains, in my opinion, um, one of the, the greatest and deepest, uh, mysteries.

And since your book has come out, um, Death by Astonishment specifically, because it's been a few, a few years now, right, um, one year, one year, so less than one year. Oh, really? OK, July, July last year, yeah. OK, so coming up on, yeah, almost a year now. So in that year, the more research that you're doing, have you found like even greater, um, seeds and, and new findings in this last year? Well, I certainly, the book prompted me to think more deeply about certain aspects of DMT. I mean the DMTX thing, um, you know, that technique now, um, has been. You know, thoroughly validated, uh, that we can stabilize, we can extend and safely extend and stabilize the DMT state for, for, well, for an indefinite period of time and, and a number of people now are doing that. Uh, we're also doing it at, um, at Eleusis, as you know, uh, in the Caribbean, uh, but there are other groups that are using DMTX and I think, you know, that, that research program is only just beginning, um, but.

Um, I can't say too much at this point, but I'm currently. I have a new collaboration with someone who's very, very prominent, who I haven't worked with before, kind of an old hand, um, in the consciousness space, I'll put it like that, uh, and we're working on new models, so some very novel stuff related to, uh, the nature of, of DMT entities and, and the nature of discarnate intelligence, uh, shall we say, more, more broadly, because I don't think this is just a DMT issue. I think this also relates to other. Quote unquote anomalous experiences where people seem to interface and interact with and communicate with, um, beings that are normally imperceptible, um, and it's, you know, for such a long time these kind of experiences have been dismissed by, by Western science as being the um, You know, the, the, the, the machinations of a troubled mind or um the um fantasies of the the deluded and um I think.

Hopefully we're going to start seeing that. Actually People who've been having these experiences for 4 thousands of years, perhaps they aren't crazy and perhaps they are in fact interfacing with some kind of intelligence that's always been there. Um, uh, you know, science is just sort of catching up, I guess, uh, with that. So yeah, at the moment it's early stages, uh. This, this kind of research still, you know, I'm probably going to keep saying early stages for quite a long time, but um. Um, but that's always the case. You always kind of, you know, I always try to be kind of at the, at the forefront of, of, of where this kind of research is going and, and hopefully we'll continue to do so. Yeah, I, I want to dive into why you. Potentially believe that. These are actual entities or things that we are actually encountering and not just a hallucination, but I think it'd be good for everybody listening cause I imagine a lot of people listening are just very unfamiliar with what DMT is and also why you've, you know, dove so deep into DMT versus any other psychedelic.

Well, DMT is, you know, Technically, NN dimethyltryptamine, it's a very simple, naturally occurring, um, alkaloid that's actually ubiquitous in nature, that is the simplest of all the naturally occurring psychedelics, it's found in countless plants, remarkably and somewhat uncannily, um. And it also just happens to be, in my opinion, the most kind of efficient and reliable, um, means of accessing worlds that are beyond the imagination, that are so bizarre, that are so strange that they cannot be English, um, to use that McKennaism, um, that are, uh, and also abundantly populated. Uh, uh, I mean, you, anyone who Uh, Anyone who, who has a, you know, a few hours to spare in the kitchen and can access some Mimosa hostilis root bark, you know, I don't, I don't recommend this because it's illegal in most jurisdictions, um, but, you know, anyone has access to the, the strangest worlds that you could possibly not imagine.

Um, and has access to beings that also you could not imagine and beings that are so strange and so complex, uh, and apparently intelligent and communicative, um, and to me that's a remarkable thing. There's no other psychedelic really, um, that offers such an efficient means of, um. Uh, of, of interfacing with, with such. Um, extraordinary. Other worlds, um, and so that in itself, you know, whatever you think about the ontology, uh, of DMT, uh, the DMT space or or or what, you know, whether you're interested in the neuroscience or not, that in itself is, is, is, is a truly remarkable thing, but I am interested in the neuroscience of it. I am a neuroscientist, so. I want to know, you know, how is this possible, um, and it's very easy to kind of.

Dismiss these experiences as hallucinations as many neuroscientists want to do, and My role, I guess, um, not necessarily a chosen role, but the role that I have been conscripted into, uh, is to kind of push back against that kind of orthodox narrative that DMT is just hallucination, it's just your brain on drugs, it's just your brain being frazzled, um, by the presence of a molecule that simply shouldn't be there, and I don't think that's, that's the case. DMT is, um. its effects are. Not easy to explain, uh, from a neuroscientific perspective. It's not easy to explain why when you perturb the brain with this simple plant-based alkaloid, um, that it should suddenly start spitting out hyperdimensional. Ecologies, um, of nonhuman, non-animal entities, um, with intellectual and cognitive prowess way beyond, uh, even the brightest of humans. Um, so, yeah, that's what I do. I think about DMT and I try to Keep 1 ft in neuroscience all the time. Um, I don't, I try not to kind of go off into the, the mystical and the magical because it's kind of unrooted, uh, in that anything, anything can go if you can say, oh, it's the astral plane you're going to or it's the spirit world, you know, that might be true in one sense, but it doesn't really help with an explanation, it doesn't really tell us anything, um.

Can you break down, yeah, can you break down what happens in the brain when You know, smoking or IV DMT, the neuroscience behind it. I think that would be really fascinating to go through the basics of how it's, you know, hitting certain receptors versus maybe even just different psychedelics. Yeah, well, I mean, DMT falls into the category of what often referred to as the classic psychedelics, which includes not just DMT but psilocybin, uh, LSD, uh, mescaline, um, these are all. Um, activators, agonists at a particular type of serotonin receptor, actually a number of serotonin receptors, but the major kind of, we know that the major locus for their effects is this 2A receptor, the 5HT2A receptor, which is known as, it's an excitatory receptor. Um, it's found on neurons, these information generating cells within the brain.

Um, and it binds to these receptors selectively or fairly selectively and stimulates neurons. It makes neurons more excitable. It makes them more likely to fire, um, to fire more often, to fire at a higher rate, uh, and basically, Um, as an overall excitatory effect on neural activity, so. The The The world that you experience, the, what we call the phenomenal world is this, this model of the environment that your brain constructs. Um, uh, I know Anil Seth, the neuroscientist likes to say that reality is a controlled hallucination. I don't really like that term, um, but reality is certainly a model. Um, your experience of reality at least is a model. Um, your brain's attempt to model what's going on out there, what whatever out there is, your brain never has access to, but it's always constructing this model and testing it, it against sensory information, uh, and psychedelics, they basically, they perturb that model. Um, they, they, the model shifts from being, um, very kind of stable, stable, but dynamic, um, into being much more fluid. Um, this is why.

And this is because of the, the stimulating effect on, on the cortex. Um, it's kind of like heating up a piece of glass. It becomes more, more, more fluid and malleable and dynamic, um, and that's generally what psychedelics do. So they shift the brain from this very controlled and regulated state and be in a slightly more fluid state in the brain. You, if you put someone in an MRI machine, you can see, um, the cortical activity becomes kind of freed up. Um, and the brain explores a broader repertoire of states in a, in a more. Um, in a, in a freer fashion, basically, um, so you go from all kind of order to a slightly more disordered state in a psychedelic state, or at least that's the case with the, the other classic psychedelics, but with DMT something kind of remarkable seems to happen is that the brain kind of. Goes from order to disorder and then it kind of collapses down into this new order, uh, which is the construction of this alternate world model. So you go from the normal waking world model as a model of the environment into, uh, an, an entirely different world model that, um, that is completely unrelated to the normal waking world. It's completely unrelated to, um, the model your brain normally constructs. It's as if your brain is, has switched the channel.

Uh, Basically, you know, a reality channel switch as Terence McKenna again used to call it, um. And this is this what we call the DMT world is this alternate model, um, and the question. For me is, you know, how does that happen? That's, that's kind of the mystery is, is how does the brain switch from constructing this world model that it evolved and learned to construct, um, into constructing this entirely different model that's far more complex, that's far more, uh, dynamic, that's, that's abundantly populated by non-human, non-animal beings, you know, that. That transition, that's what we don't really understand why that happens and how that happens, and how that's possible. It's as if the brain is speaking a new language, basically, a language that it never learned to speak. Um, so that's, that's kind of the mystery of DMT. So through your research, because that makes perfect sense, it, it has to distort your reality so much that it can then change the channel into a new reality, unlike the classic psychedelics which are more just pure distortion, it sounds like, um.

Through your research with the protocols, have you found a very particular way that allows people to go through the The disruption and then Have the brain reformulate into the new reality, into the DMT reality, cause I imagine you could just blast somebody with a bunch of DMT, but maybe there's a more finessed way to get them to that place, cause I imagine you're playing with brain chemistry, it takes some finesse. Well, um Not so much finesse, I would say. I think that the problem with the standard mode of administration, you know, what's called bolus administration, so you inject somebody with with. DMT, you know, 30 mg of DMT into their, into their vein, uh, or somebody just vaporizing DMT, it's the same, same thing really. You get a, uh, a bolus, you know, one hit of DMT goes into the blood, it goes into the brain, uh, and within a few seconds, your world is transformed and you're in this, you kind of break through in this alternate environment and normally this, this.

You enter what I often call kind of the rollercoaster phase of the DMT state, which is extremely disorientating, it's um, extremely complex, it's extremely confusing, um, and you kind of look around wide-eyed, uh, shocked and appalled and astonished, uh, beyond, uh, beyond your wildest imagination don't and um. That you just don't die, yeah, uh and then and then you're kind of dragged back a few minutes later, um, and so you never kind of get past that phase, you know, as I said earlier, the um, it's about. The DM the effect of DMT is to change that world model. It's like changing the channel, uh, on a, if you on a, on a radio and on one of those old radio sets and you kind of have to find the channel and that's the kind of, it's a lot of kind of interference and crackling and then finally you find this beautiful new channel kind of. Crackling through the speakers and um.

It it's kind of the same with DMT is that it takes time, or my prediction at least is that it takes time for that state to kind of stabilize, uh, and you never really get the chance with, with a normal administration of DMT because it's so fast, it's in the brain and it's, you know, the moment that it peaks within the brain is you're already starting to come down, um, and so. The, the brain never gets a chance to kind of settle into the construction of this alternate world model, uh, which is fine for most people because it's more than enough just to be in there for, you know, 233 minutes really at the peak, um, but with, With DMTX you can, because you can stabilize the DMT levels in the brain, it kind of allows the brain, and my prediction and hope was that it would actually allow the brain to settle and stabilize into this construction of this alternate world model, uh, and that the actual experience would stabilize, um.

Um, and there's, there's good, there was good kind of pharmacokinetic mathematical models of that that myself and Rick Straussman developed back in, well, 2015 now, um, that suggested this should work, um, and then the Imperial College team. Did a wonderful job of kind of improving that and making it human ready and and demonstrated that yes, you could stabilize the DMT state, um, and. Um, so it's, it's not, there's no kind of finesse there really. It's like you get the infusion rate right. I mean, that's what it's about. It's about what's the infusion rate, you know, what's the, uh, the rate at which we kind of, what's the initial bolus that you put in. You, you normally you deliver an initial bolus which brings the DMT level in, in the brain up to a certain level, and, and then you kind of compensate for the metabolism and excretion by introducing this infusion. Uh, it's kind of like if you have a, a bathtub of water and, and you pull the plug, um, the water starts draining out and then if you switch on.

The taps or the faucet, um, you can kind of compensate for that and maintain a stable water level and and you're doing really the same thing, it's the same idea in the brain, uh, except you're using an infusion of DMT, um, so, so it's as simple and and as complicated as that, um, it's, it's more complicated in practice, um, to stabilize a drug in someone's brain, but you know that's. Um, what the Imperial team were able to achieve and what other people were doing DMTX now also. Yeah, I mean, I would call that finesse. You gotta, I mean, that's what an anesthesiologist has to do, right, is keep somebody alive with, with chemicals. So yeah, I mean, same, same concept, um, yeah, it's really fascinating. Yeah, I'm, so your one of your main goals is, like you said, answer the mystery of DMT and as you've been going on this journey for such a long time, I imagine you get glimpses of maybe not the answer of the mystery, but potential benefits of it. I don't know if you Have any, you know, insights to, as you've been studying this and people around you working with it, glimpses of what its purpose or reason it could be here.

Uh well, that's a very big question, um, reason and purpose, um, sort of these sort of. Teleological questions, you know, what, what's it all about, um, these are big questions. I don't, I don't know the answer to that question, uh, I don't know why DMT is so ubiquitous in nature. I don't know why. The uh, the, you know, the, the simplest of all and most common of all the naturally occurring psychedelics it just should just happen to be this incredibly efficient reality channel switch, um, I don't know the answer to that question, um. And nor do I know if it's possible to get the answer to that question, but, but certainly, um. The more that I work with with DMT and and and and work with people using DMT, it's it's becoming clearer and clearer, uh, in my opinion, um, that. This is a relationship with these intelligences that can be fostered and can be developed, um, whether we can.

Truly unders whether we whether we're even capable, um, there's, um, it, it's not, there's no guarantee that we, we're even capable cognitively as, as a human species of, of truly understanding, you know what DMT is or what the state, the, the, the, the, and, and the intelligence is, uh, you know, what what that is and. Um, its relationship to humanity, but I think we, we, we, we, we need to basically go in there with a great deal of hum humility, uh, and that we, we are, and I kind of accept the fact that we know very, very little, uh, about the true nature of reality. Um, that's about, that's the most difficult lesson, I think, because we are, we do kind of put ourselves up on a pedestal as being, um, This incredibly wise and, and, and smart species that kind of has a handle on reality, um, you know, we know, you know, we, we know, we have these, these scientists talking about, you know, the expansion of the universe and, you know, quantum theory and, and all of this stuff and it's all wonderful stuff, but, um, it's very easy to kind of.

Become overconfident in one's grasp of reality and DMT is a is a great cure for that, to say the least, uh, and that it will show you actually that you don't know anything about the nature of reality and so we just go in there with an open mind and with great humility and try to learn. Yeah, if you want to get humbled, have a couple of conversations with DMT and you'll, you'll get humbled. Yeah. Do you see any glimpses, I guess, uh, of just benefits of individuals exploring the DMT space other than trying to figure out what it is just for individuals for the physiology or mental health, or you just kind of completely keep that to the side. Imagine if you're measuring all these different metrics, you may get data from that that you weren't necessarily looking for. Well, I mean, DMT is, is, is remarkable, not just in terms of the kind of the worlds that it takes you to, but also, you know, I mean, in basic neuroscience terms, I mean, DMT is, is actually a trial going on a phase, in a phase 2 trial now looking at DMT as a treatment, an acute treatment for, uh, people.

Uh, uh, who have a stroke, right, so post-stroke acute treatment, people with traumatic brain injury as well because we know that, um, DMT protects neurons, it protects the brain. In, uh, hypoxic conditions, so when the brain is starved of oxygen or areas of the brain are starved of oxygen, as during a stroke, um, areas of the brain start to die very, very quickly, and this can be, you know, catastrophic, it can be fatal, or it can be debilitating, uh, and lead to profound disabilities, uh, and in rats, at least, they've shown that they can actually prevent. Uh, this neural damage and actually reverse this neural damage with DMT, uh, which is incredible because we thought that actually these, these were irreversible effects and you simply had to restore the oxygen supply as quickly as possible before the brain. Cells started to die, uh, and now we know that with, with DMT you can actually prevent that because you can, you can save the cells, um, and stop them from dying in these hypoxic conditions, um, at least in rats and isolated cells, and now it seems that this is going to be, or there's a study I think that should have been concluded, it hasn't been published yet, um, but, um, I think you're gonna see.

Um, DMT finding a use in, in, in, in stroke and traumatic brain injury, but also in, in mental health broadly, you know, obviously the. Psychedelics have experienced something of a, a renaissance, if you like, uh, in the last couple of decades, uh, and finding uses in, in the treatment of normally very difficult to treat, if not intractable neuropsychological conditions such as, you know, treatment resistant depression, PTSD, anxiety disorders, this kind of thing, um, and. Psilocybin and LSD have kind of, particularly psilocybin has been the most prominent there, but with DMT, particularly with the DMTX technology, because you have such control over the depth of the state and the length of time you can hold someone in the state. Um, I think you're gonna find, um, in the next few years that DMT also starts to rise to the, the forefront, uh, in, in the treatment of neuropsychological conditions, uh, and also just for basic, um, how, how shall I put it, neurol longevity if you like, uh, in that, the DMT is, is very good at stimulating neurogenesis, it stimulates synaptogenesis, it helps brain cells kind of.

Um, regenerate, um, and increase their connections between. Between each other, um, so, you know, Brian Johnson, I think, you know, did, he did 5 MEO DMT very recently, uh, in his quest to live forever. Um, yeah, I was gonna ask if you think DMT will become sort of a biohacker like microdosing, psilocybin, they'll start. You know, taking a hit of DMT off of a vape pen, you know, every other day for longevity benefits or maybe even doing a, a, you know, quote unquote macro DMT trip once a quarter for the longevity benefits. Do you see that becoming like a biohacker's dream? Well for sure, I mean the again, the issue with DMT is because it's so short acting, it's with, with, with LSD or or mushrooms you can take a microdose and it, it lasts a much longer period of time, but with, with DMT it's it's, it's trickier uh to microdose it because it's in and out of your brain so quickly. But for sure, you know, I think. The, um, the West Coast types, um, certainly I'm sure very interested in DMT as they are and other West Coast yeah like me the other day in the float tank accidentally. Yeah, exactly, he went a little too deep in the float tank with his DMT.

I wanted to ask you, is the hypoxia benefit, is it the sigma one receptor or does it have anything to do with that? Yeah, seems to be. For hypoxia specifically, it's actually dependent on on the sigma one receptor, yeah. And that's what I think is really fascinating because of the extended state, cause if you smoke it, you're, I imagine not going to be able to even get it to the other parts of your body and from what I understand, those receptors are everywhere, right? And if you're in extended state, it's gonna move through the whole body and potentially hit all those receptors. As well as for an extended period of time. Uh, well, that I mean that's the key, it's the extended period of time, so it's about it's, it's not just access to the receptors, but how. How, um Um, Kind of how, how much of these receptors being stimulated and for how long, so yes, it's, it's, it's a temporal issue basically, um, if you, if you, if you're infusing the drug directly to someone's bloodstream, then wherever the, you know, the DMT is going to be kind of fairly constant and stable, um, not just within the brain but throughout the, the, the, um, the circulatory system for an extended period of time and, you know, potentially for several hours, uh, uh, which.

You know, might allow um more pronounced effects than you can achieve with with just a bolus injection for sure. So there's a lot of benefits to doing to like having DMT like you said with the Sigma one and like like flood of BDNF and all these things. But on the darker side, like, what are the side effects, if any, that you've seen or, or maybe negative, um, Effects of having a flood of DMT in your brain. I know it's endogenous, so there probably is very little, but I'd be curious if you've seen any. Well, I mean, neuropsy neurologically, you know, neurophysiologically, there's. There are no, it's, it's, it's a benign molecule um in that there are no toxic effects if that's, that's what you're asking. Um, no, I mean, you know, Terence McKenna wasn't so far wrong when he said the only risk is death by astonishment. I mean that's the, I mean that really is the, the risk is that you are your entire. Model of reality and you know everything you thought was.

True, uh, everything you thought was possible and everything you thought was impossible, all of, all of that's gone, it's kind of extirpated within just a few moments, and that's psychologically that can be quite difficult to deal with, um, knowing. You know, my very first experience, you know, 20 odd years ago, um, it, it, it, it was, it was shattering and it was, it was something that could not have been anticipated, you know, um, and. People can read trip reports and they can listen to Terence McKenna lectures and they kind of in their head they have this idea of what DMT is like or what it, what kind of experience they're going to expect, uh, and it that it's, it's all wrong, um, it's not something that can be expected. I think someone who's never done DMT. Can never really have an idea of what it's like, and that's the, the, another interesting thing about it is that you, you can't, um, I mean, there's some great artwork that kind of gets the vibe sometimes of the DMT state, um, but the only way to experience it is.

By taking DMT, you know, that's, that's it. Yeah, you gotta try it. That's the, that's the only way. One thing I'm curious about is in the DMT state, what I've noticed, at least personal experience is this. Lucidity that other psychedelics, the classic psychedelics don't necessarily give you. If you're on 200 mcg of LSD, your thoughts are insane. You have wild thoughts. Same thing with psilocybin and your thinking process is totally different. What I've noticed with DMT and maybe again, this is just my own personal experience, I don't know if it resonates with others. That my brain still, my thoughts still seem very normal. I'm just in a different place. Do you have an explanation to that, or is that something you've seen from other participants and subjects? No, that's, I mean that's very widely reported. I mean, again, even Terence McKenna used to report this that in, in a way it doesn't like it doesn't affect your mind, um, it, it, it affects, and that's what's also another what makes DNC so kind of shocking, uh, is that all of your faculties are left kind of mercilessly intact. Um, you're not stoned, you're not, um, intoxicated.

Um, you're not kind of buffered, buffered against the experience, um, in, in that you, it, it just takes you straight there, um, and it's like it, it's like. Like a neurological device that's kind of just with engineered precision kind of slips into your neural architecture and and changes the channel, you know, it, it's again that is quite difficult to explain, you know, it, it, it, it for such a simple molecule, you'd, it's it's like, you know, why, why does it, how is it able to affect this transformation in the structure and dynamics of your world, you know, so profoundly. Um, so unimaginably dramatically, uh, and yet. Your, uh, the rest of your faculties, your ability to think and your ability to, uh, appreciate that experience is left intact and, and you don't see that with the other psychedelics. They do tend to cause, as you say, more of a, um, you know, along with the, the world model, your, your, your thought processes also become kind of distorted and more fluid and you know, it's difficult to hold a train of thought, uh.

Your, your, your thought is, is, is twisting and turning and kind of wandering around, um, but with DMT that doesn't seem to be the case. It's like someone has literally just switched the channel on, on your world and that's also what makes it so shocking, I think. Yeah, I would, I would, it would be less shocking if you felt stoned because at least it would be, you know, less normal, but you're just like, I'm still me, I'm just. Somewhere I'm somewhere I'm in a fractal noise box. Yeah, and this is actually in the imperial study they actually Measured degrees of ego loss as it's called, or ego disintegration, the, the loss of the sense of self with psychedelics that's quite profound, um, you know, leading, leading ultimately to ego death and sort of oceanic boundlessness where there is no distinction between the self and the other, um, but with DMT they found that actually the egos seemed to remain the the whatever measures they used for loss of ego seem, seemed ego seemed to remain quite high, so it's like it isn't affecting.

Um, the, the ego, it isn't affecting the sense of self, um, like other psychedelics do. So again, another, another mystery of DMT. Yeah, weird. I don't, I have a theory. It's a super half-baked theory, but I want to share it with you, so maybe you can complete it or maybe you've already figured this out and I'm, I'm just behind, but what I've like my, my small realization was that, you know, if DMT is in every. Almost every plant, animal, like it's abundant in nature, it's connecting everything within nature and it's also within us. Then when we Induce ourselves with high levels of DMT, you know, we're, we're filled with this compound that the rest of the world is also filled with. And if you think about what Nikola Tesla said, Uh, think about everything in vibration and frequency. Then every molecule has a frequency. Then at the time that we're, you know, filled with DMT to the highest dose, we're frequent, we're resonating at the frequency most resonant with the rest of nature. So in some way it's connecting us on such a deeper level to the natural world and to everything outside of us.

But then why do you, um, OK, well, yeah, break down my theory. Well, I mean, you know, I mean, I think there's, there's probably something in that, um, I, I always am a little bit, I reel a little bit when people start talking about frequencies because, uh, uh, you know, frequency of what exactly you know wouldn't be, you know, uh, what are you talking about specifically, but I think, I think broadly the idea that, uh, and again I don't want to. Lurch into the the mystical too much, but um. Certainly I would say that. Behind the scenes, you know, behind the curtain of reality, things are more connected than we anticipate. Uh, I think the idea that, that, that our separation is, is, is illusory, um, even that. You know, as the The ancient mystics have been telling us for thousands of years, you know, um, everything, you know, the reality is, is a, a grand illusion if you like, um, and we shouldn't take it too seriously and that behind, behind that, um, there is something.

Deeper and and more connected and that we are a part of that, uh, and, and yeah, I think psychedelics do reveal that, that we aren't, that we aren't so separate, we are all part of some, some incredibly beautiful emergent process, um, and so I think, you know, what you're saying isn't wrong. I think in a, in a, in some aspects it's true, um. Um, but the mechanics of it and how that actually works, I think that's what we still don't understand and we might not be capable of understanding. Yeah, well, I told you it was half baked, so. Do you ever sit with, you know, have you ever gone to the Amazon or sit with indigenous leaders or invited them to participate in studies and just had a conversation over coffee just to kind of Pick at their brain and see how they view things. Well, yeah, I mean I've had conversations over cock well conversations, um, um, with indigenous people. I've never sat, um, in the I mean like not not why you sat in ceremony.

Yeah, I mean, um. You stood, you stood with them next door at a coffee shop. There we go, um, yeah, I mean I think there's. You know, one of the things that I tried to do in Death by astonishment was, was not to kind of sideline. Um, the, the role of the indigenous peoples in, in all of this because they've been working with DMT. I mean, they might not have known that it was DMT, um, that they were working with, but they've been working with these plant-based, DMT-based, uh, technologies for long before we arrived on the scene, long before Western science, um, first discovered DMT in the last century, um. And I think in many ways a lot of what they said actually seems to comport well with what I think, um, the idea that there is some kind of intelligence and that, you know, they might have a different word for it, you know, they might call it, call them spirits or Or gods or, or whatever, uh, and, and it's just semantics, you know, it's just, you know, what words do we use to kind of tile over this, this, this phenomenon, this, this, but it's the same phenomenon that's been going on for thousands of years, which is the, the interaction with, you know, human interaction with beings that are normally invisible, uh, but which can be rendered visible, uh, by the use of certain.

Um, visual prosthetics if you like, um, these molecules which you can put into the, into your brain, which, which, um. The altar The, the dynamics of, of, of your consciousness. I mean, really, that's what's going on. It's altering the dynamics of your consciousness and allowing you to interface with these intelligences, and I, I have, I have a particular way of looking at it, particularly, I come from a particular Western scientific tradition, have a particular worldview. They come from, from a very, very different. Tradition, uh, and having an entirely different worldview, but I think ultimately we're talking about the same thing. We're, we're both talking about. Communicating with interacting with beings that are normally, uh, invisible and they'd be doing it a lot longer, so, so I think we, we shouldn't, um, we certainly shouldn't sideline them or or dismiss their interpretation. I think they've, they've got a lot to tell us about these, the, these beings and, and a lot of what they said, as I said, uh, actually map very, very well, you know, as I, I, I, I wrote in Death by astonishment, I, I mentioned that.

Their ideas quite a lot, um, and um they, they seem to actually dovetail quite well with My thinking, which arrived entirely independently of, of, of them, uh, and yet we, we, we in a, in a sense, we come to the same conclusions. Yeah, I, I very much agree with you that it is a It is a technology and it feels for me, at least in my experience, that it is. A relationship, right? And it really helped me connect doing ayahuasca experiences all the way through DMT that it's not just something you, for me personally, you can just go one and done. I mean, I guess if you want the neurochemical benefit, but it makes sense, like in the traditions, it's something you need to continually do and practice and explore and build relationships because there's It's, it's just different than doing acid. I'm not building relationships with anything in acid. It, it just for me, it feels that way and it's, it's like you're studying. It's like you're going to university and the only way to go to university is you gotta go into DMT world and it's a lifelong process and I think What you're doing is potentially opening up.

modern society to start to develop those relationships moving forward into the future, which I think is very essential as things advance very quickly. Yeah, I mean, um. I guess I would say the lion's share of what I've been doing over the last decade or so has been. Uh, has been trying to convince the, the scientific community, uh, and the, you know, the skeptic community, um, that actually there is something worth studying here, uh, that there is, there is, there is a mystery to be solved, uh, or at least a mystery that, that should not be dismissed with such, um, casual facility, um, that, that, the DMT represents something far more difficult to explain than. Your brain on drugs, um, and, and, you know, the, the kind of the, what is DMT and they're trying to, uh, explain DMT and what are these entities, you know, what's their relationship to humans and human consciousness, these are actually, that's probably 30% of what I'm, I do and the rest of the time it's, it's just trying to convince, um, scientists that actually this is something that they should be looking at, uh, and that they don't really have.

An explanation for because there are, there are plenty of scientists who are very, very happy to give you a long explanation of why you see DMT entities and you know what DMT is doing in the brain and uh and it's very convincing to most people, you know, not to me, uh, but and so I try and um verbalize this as best as best as I can why I think. Uh, that their explanations fall short of the mark, um, and I don't claim, I've never claimed to have all the answers, um, but, um, I guess all I, all I claim is that we don't have all the answers and that we're, we're, we're, we're definitely still looking for the, the answers and that we shouldn't sort of sit on our coattails. Is that the right phrase? Did I make that up? Sit on our coattails. Yeah, I like it. Let's adopt it. Yeah, we'll credit anyway, we'll credit Professor Gallimore with that. Yeah, how are you gonna get in an argument with a guy who's never done, like, if the guy's never done DMT and he's trying to, he can explain anything to you. He can be like, yeah, yeah, it's a hallucination and blah, blah, blah. You're like, bro, you have no idea what the fuck. Just do it, bro. There's no way you could say that after you do it. There's no, absolutely no way.

And if you do, then you're just delusional. Yeah, I think that's the thing is it's like the the only surefire convincer is, is, is a, is a glass pipe and 10 minutes of your time, that's all I need, um, and yeah, he'll make a believer. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's one of those things you can't talk about. It's just there's the words, there's no words in the English or any language. In the lexicon to be able to describe what it is. Um, but yeah, the, the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao, right? So you have to experience this and it, it just, it can't happen with, with words. Yeah, but I think you did as good of a job as one can with your book. Impeccable. Thank you very much. Yeah, impeccable. Do you have another book coming soon-ish? Not soonish. Well, not the next, but I'm, I'm. Decades, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm writing another book now, but nothing to do with DMT. Oh, what's this one? Nothing to do with psychedelics. Whoa, yeah, yes.

Can you give us some details or is this hush hush? Um, it's, well, it's, it's, it's about drugs. It's an erotic novel, that's about, it's an erotic novel, yeah, chem chem, yeah, yeah, it's about drugs, great, it's not too far off. It's about drugs, yeah, of course, I mean that's, I, I've got nothing else to write about, but yeah, uh, you put all your eggs in one basket. Yeah, but there are lots of drugs to talk about, so, uh, you know, it's nothing to do with psychedelics though. Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm trying something new. I kind of, I feel like I've said. Enough, more than enough about DMT, and there are, there are points where language can't reach with DMT, and I've kind of said what I, I need to say, and, um, and so yeah, I'm going to write something completely different, but you'll have to wait and see for that. Well, I'm excited because you're an excellent writer and you read your audiobook and you're a phenomenal speaker and it's just you're so meticulous and laying things out so you really understand, so.

Whatever drugs you read about, I'm definitely we will read about. Well, um, yeah, we want to be aware of your time and this has been an awesome conversation. Yeah, we're super excited about DMTX to actually have an extended state, and I think that is the thing that is going to open the doorways to be able to understand these. Possible places or whatever they are, because you have to be able to stay in those places, right? And being able to modify the doses, you know, you can change the levels in which, you know, you're experiencing, I don't know, there's levels, right? Obviously, and I think it's very interesting, and it's, you're, you're, you've opened. Pandora's box in a great way. Well, I hope so, and uh you, you're, you are going to see more of these, particularly with DMTX now I think, you know, I couldn't have anticipated the impact that that paper that I wrote with Rich Strassmann was going to have back in 2015 and, and now as you say, you know, we have the elusive retreat now, so where, you know, basically anyone, um, can, can pay, of course, um, to go to this, this island and take DMT in a controlled setting with proper.

Uh preparation and full medical supervision with anesthesiologists. Um, so yeah, anyone who wants to try DMTX, go to Eleusis M E L E U S I S M.com and they can check out the um the retreat programs they have there and then, you know, maybe take a trip to the Caribbean and experience several DMTX trips over a few days. Amazing. Cool. Well, how can people find you if they don't know you yet or they just found you through this episode? How can people learn more about your Connect with you, find your books. Um, yeah, so they go to my, I have a website alieninsect.net. Um, that's kind of my, it's been my social media handle alien insects, so if they go on Twitter, I still call it Twitter, um, that's where I'm mainly am, alien insect. Um, I'm on Instagram as alien insect as well, and my website has links to all of my podcasts and a lot of my.

Papers and interviews and my books as well, um, you know, alien insect.net, that's probably the first port of call. I also have a a neuro psychedelic neuroscience course on YouTube which is entirely free, like 70 videos, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, 7 units going, it's called. Uh, Andrew Gallimore's psychedelic neuroscience master course or something like that. I did it a few years ago during COVID. I recorded it, but it's 7 units, you've got takes you from the very basics of, of pharmacology and, and, and basic chemistry all the way through to how your world model is constructed and how psychedelics affect your brain. Yeah, so if people really, really wanna get into, into the weeds and understand how psychedelics work in the brain. Um, then that video course and my second book Reality Switch Technologies is really good for that, but those who are really interested in DMT specifically, uh, they can read Death by astonishment. Cool. Well, there goes my weekend. I'm gonna be watching your YouTube course the, the whole time. Um, amazing. Well, Doctor Andrew Galmore, thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you and you know, we can't wait to see what else you do in the coming years with your research and your book on drugs.

Thanks. Thank you very much, been a pleasure. Yeah.